CAN I TALK POLITICS?
Ladies and gentlemen,
I am PRO Mubarak.
Yes, I hate the guy.
Yes, I know all the negatives he and his gang have been doing but there are positive points too, and these are what we should support and beg to dominant.
Yes, I dream of someone else to come rule. I personally like the old monarchy time.
BUT
I believe that democracy is a way of life that needs training and readiness. Awareness. Lots of preparation before we grab it. I now enjoy the 'training' that everyone is exercising his right to say what he feels, go on demonstrations, curse the president. Awesome. This is what I am pro. Pro hearing the voicing and exercising my right to object and complain and be effective. Down or up with Mubarak is maybe the end result, but the main goal, I think, is 'exercizing' a right to be a positive citizen who feels that he OWNS the country and belong there. To feel that Egypt is indeed my country and I do contribute.
I am PRO Mubarak.
Yes, I hate the guy.
Yes, I know all the negatives he and his gang have been doing but there are positive points too, and these are what we should support and beg to dominant.
Yes, I dream of someone else to come rule. I personally like the old monarchy time.
BUT
I believe that democracy is a way of life that needs training and readiness. Awareness. Lots of preparation before we grab it. I now enjoy the 'training' that everyone is exercising his right to say what he feels, go on demonstrations, curse the president. Awesome. This is what I am pro. Pro hearing the voicing and exercising my right to object and complain and be effective. Down or up with Mubarak is maybe the end result, but the main goal, I think, is 'exercizing' a right to be a positive citizen who feels that he OWNS the country and belong there. To feel that Egypt is indeed my country and I do contribute.
Comments
Do you think democracy is fully excercised anywhere?
right to what people have to say.. hmm, well that is positive in the sense they are not grabbed to jail as they used to before and at the same time get to vent out.
But do u really think that what the people say is considered? or is it just that the government officials felt like what the heck, let them say what they want, but we will still have "our" way" anyway.
That in itself is positive in a sense "false and passive freedom of speech" that allows the citizen to psychologically be convinced they are living in a democratic system. Well maybe not completely, but i personally feel they are taking the "let the dog bark its lungs out, and walk your way anyway" attitude.
fake it until you make it.
Maybe you see what is happening as dogs barking, but one of these days these barking will be silenced and replaced by them acting, and acting right!
Democracy is a variable!
How So?
"I personally like the old monarchy time." Could this support a Democratic Egypt?
I've once
wondered, if Optimism is the mood after 24 years of wishfull thinking, What version of Democracy an Arab Country like Egypt would be??
The modern versions of democracy Are :
Competitive democracy,
Consumer democracy,
Participatory democracy,
Network democracy or
Deliberative democracy.????
She: who will you vote for?
Me: may be X.
She: he sounds aggressive, and more concerned with local policy than foreign affairs.
Me: I guess local policy is important.
She: yes it’s important, but X doesn’t seem to be a good politician.
Me: yes, I agree. Bas a7san el we7sheen.
She: what I really take against the opposition that they are pointing out every single negative thing about Mubarak. Still he did good things.
Me: yes he did. Trying to be fair. He did good things as much as he did bad things. It’s enough that emergency law, which they are abusing.
She: they said they will change it.
Me: hehe.. they said.. did we see an action?! Plus.. they might change it with another law called terrorism law :D.. don’t think it will differ a lot.
She: still, who knows what these new ones might do.
Me: yeah, who knows?! Still, I won’t vote for Mubarak.. keda keda he will succeed.
BTW, I totally believe in that "fake it till you make it".
Can anyone please refresh my memory, did the last presendential election in the United States have anything to do with true democracy? The polls were tampered with and the whole world knew about it.
Maybe something new came up, but not that i knew of since i quit followin it all the way.
I used to think that the US is a very democratic Country, but was really down at the time of the elections.
In the U.S Democracy is practiced, but also confined as everywhere, maybe on a larger scale, but still not completely.
Where "baba" Mubarak is concerned, well a Baba doesn't leave his kids till he passes away i guess. And we do have an alright baba, he has his pros and cons. Cannot deny him that. Question is will it really make a difference if we voted or not? Really would it? I sometimes wonder.
The fake it till u make it, has a wisdom. khed3a ya3ni, working from beneath the surface and pop out to take your oponent by suprise. Very, if i may say: Shrewd.
I actually agree with Jade that what it matters is the step forward in us being more active, think and the state of conversation that is taking place is not bad. Next election will be better and better.
I am not sure which parties, other than Khalid's party, is boycotting the election. I hope they dont though.
Personally speaking, no sugar-coating words, I think Egyptians are far better been guided by a whip and a dictator. We are all pharos deep down. Democracy is not for egypt, maybe human rights will chip in to protect, but democracy as of 'u say, I say, we decide', naah never happened! Check how your parents treat you and how u treat ur kids.
He is almost three and i have been doing this ever since he was very young, to the extent some people asked how will he know, he still does not understand. That is so not true. Kids will grow up acordingly to how we deal with them, their thoughts must be broadened and their minds stimulated to think and act accordingly being given basic guidlines of course of ethics, morals and religion.
There is a seriouse problem where this parent/kid relationship is concerned. Many parents under estimate their child's capabilities and awareness, thinking so because they are young and therefore do not know what is good for them and so forth is wrong. A kid has to be taught to respect and at the same time to be respected, heard and spoken to.
Many of our parents expect us to render them total repect and not be given the same amount of respect in turn. This in itself brings about isolation, and creates generation gaps.
I cannot say it didn't happen with me, it did, but i came to a point where i could not take it anymore and i made myself clear about it. I forced everyone to learn to listen and have discussions, either to convince me or be convinced or compromise. Forcing opinions will lead to relbelion at some point. If not, the kid will get lost in mnay senses because he/she shall do things behind his/her parents back and therefor be the first to be harmed, and inturn have a direct negative effect on society, we yafar7et el parents ba2a sa3etha.
THis is precisely what i was trying to say regarding the gov. systems. THey create isolation and some reactions have been and will be very negative.
Where the US is concerned, many people realized that they are not realy living in total democracy. They realized they have been blinded by what the gov only wants them to know, espcially through the media.
It only lets them know what the gov wants to tell the people. Only after this war on terrorism started they began to realize what a big lie they were living in and started searching for the truth on their own.
Some do choose to stay that way though, these in my opinion are the ones who still believe they are living in full democracy.
I beg to disagree, actually I dont beg but DISAGREE... The purpose is not just to change mubarak but to create (in my opinion) a fabric of change, a fabric of new social movement that will carry a better change later on. Having someoen other than Mubarak just for the sake of change is not a good idea when it comes to EGYPT. It is not in my opinion that who governs is the issue it is how we carry on the change to become real.
My main issue with Kefaya is inconsistency towards pursuing its goals. One day they shout to remove the minister of interior, a week later they are on someother project and so on. THey are not accomplishing anything other than shouts. There is no objective in my opinion other than creating some sort of shaking...which could be good, but even chaos should be organized and with objective.
is & had been a recepie for disaster. It's exactly what got Egyptian where it is tody...Baaad Bill. Corrupt it is. If you can't help it do not Push it, Do NOT fake it for god's sake. you can pretend till you know - a bit better than faking it!
Instead try this,
Sincerity is the key to success, if you don't have it, have it made.
You obviosuly don't like it, but can you explain why?
It's very hard to debate the issue with you when you just say something like "there is no democracy" !?
BTW, could you please not use my country as an example of fake democracy? Kinda bugs me :)
In exchange, I'll agree not to lecture you about Egyptian politics!
Do you really believe there is something called a 100% democracy that is STANDARD?
My idea about democracy is that it is like a dress, you know what it should cover and go on design a model for you that makes you comfortable and suits your body, and covers the defauts you had until you either get a lyposuckion (is this how you spell it), or just go on a diet!
I lived in the US and europe for quite sometimes to know that these countries are enjoying democracy, whether it is 100% or not, it doesnt concern me. There sure is manipulation everywhere, our history tells us that. I only get worried when there is NO democracy, just dictators and endless brainwashing, like that happened to egyptians during Nasser's time for instance.
"Do you really believe there is something called a 100% democracy
that is STANDARD?"
No, definately not! Every existing democracy is unique. Of course, I like some better than others. I guess it's no surprise the ones I like best, are the ones most similar to what I grew up with.
But no, there's no one "right" way to practice democracy. I was mainly curious about Dalulla, who seemed to be implying since there's no "perfect" democracy, that democracy is not worth having!
I like your description about the dress and the liposuction. (I think that's how it is spelled!)
So, since you have been living in some level of democracy for sometime, what, in your opinon, is not 'democratic' in your country and need to be looked into?
One thing, is that I think the media has too much influence over the way people vote. I don't think this problem is "fixable" except by educating voters more, or getting them more politically motivated so that they won't take what they hear on television at face value.
I also don't much liek out 2 party system. I'm not really a conservative (I'm a civil libertarian) but I generally vote Republican, because the Republicans are closer to my politics than the Democrats are. But, I usually don't have good choices. We could switch to a parliamentary system I suppose, but then our Prime Minister would still be elected by the ministers who control Parliament, by having won the most seats. That would be even worse, in my opinion. I like directly voting for the person I want to be President.
I don't really agree with what Dalulla said about our elections? (she said polls I think) being fixed. There is voter fraud, perpetrated by both parties, but that's an enforcement issue we have to work on. It's not a problem with the system.
Hmmm... what else....
I guess I'd like to see some sort of term limits in teh Congress and the Senate. A lot of those people have been there for decades. It's supposed to be public service, not a career! How idealistic and passionate is a Senator who has held the same office for 30 or 40 years? Not very, I'm guessing :)
Who says i am pro Egyptian politics anyway? And what's this attitude about not lecturing me?? Please go ahead, i really would not mind if it would add something. I am open to different opinions that are constructive :-)
Why do u think i do not like democracy? I am for it 100% if there is such a thing in reality.
All i was saying is that i don't see it fully implemented anywhere in its full sense, and i wish it were. So there is no 100% democracy which proves my point.
Besides, i can use any country as an Example if i choose to and anyone can answer back.
Freedom of opinion is part of your system supposedly so why tell me not to refer to the states in anything i would like to say? Strange isn't it? I was referring to the fact that the system is supposedly very democratic, but lately things showed to the world that it is not the way it seemed. Maybe not to you but to many other Americans who have been complaining alot and openly whether on the American media itself or on the blogs or where ever.
Maybe u need to check other fellow Americans opinions again.
look at how many families in the US are greiving over their loved ones who have been taken from their homes for an unjustified war. Not their war. Their lives wasted in vain. I cried to see blood shed on both sides, but really why take a young man or woman to a war like this? What kind of democratic system buts into the affairs of other countries without them even asking for intervention? Where is the democracy in that? Or is the democracy only confined to the borders of the United States?
How many strikes and requests have been made to spare the lives of young Americans, and yet no response from the white house?
Where is the democracy in that? What are the ratios of unemployment in the US? How many Americans are now deprived of medical insurance?? Other than this example there are many others u yourself can add if u r honest with yourself, but won't dwell into that just not to drift too much.
Anyway, saying you are only for democracy if somebody can prove there can be perfect democracy is like... well... no comment.
The reason I asked you not to use my country as an example is I didn't want to be lectured by you. Which ended up happening anyway :)
Thanks!
Waht's the position of Islam on self-righteousnous and arrogance? I'm just wondering if you feel you set a good example. You are obviously a very religious person.
Related to the topic, I think we have no right to complain about the US's democractic system (maybe about its foreign policies that affect us). But its obvious that democracy in the States definetely works much better than we can imagine over here (perfect or not).
Dalulla... you seem very hostile. You realize that, right?
Very contradicting "seem" then shortly followed by "realize that, right?"
Are you being affirmative or questioning? In case of affirmative, then I guess it is "your" personal opinion. If questioning, then my answer is no. I am not hostile. I am a liberal person who says what she believes in without thinking of personal gain, seeking compliments, or someone to be agreeable with me just for my pleasure. I am totally open to constructive criticism if any, and I have no problem admitting I am wrong if proved so.
Anyway, saying you are only for democracy if somebody can prove there can be perfect democracy is like... well... no comment.
Ok, suite yourself.
The reason I asked you not to use my country as an example is I didn't want to be lectured by you. Which ended up happening anyway :)
:-) I thought you said that you didn't want to lecture me, which is something I had no problem with. Craig, your exact words were: In exchange, "I'll" (Craig) agree not to lecture you (Dalulla) about Egyptian politics! Please go back and read again for yourself. Funny huh? You already forgot what u said.
Thanks!
Any time Craig:-) with pleasure.
I was not lecturing you though, we are supposedly having a discussion, or at least I thought so. I cannot force you into accepting my opinions. You have all the right to contradict me, convince me otherwise, or compromise, or finally end the subject with me.
Waht's the position of Islam on self-righteousnous and arrogance? I'm just wondering if you feel you set a good example. You are obviously a very religious person
Why do you think I am "obviously" a religious person? Besides, why get religion in the middle of this discussion anyway? Besides, since it was brought up, Religion does not say to see injustice and be silent about it. Would you?
Mohammed answered your question about self-righteousness and arrogance. If by any chance you brought that up to imply that I am arrogant, then I'm sorry to disappoint you, but wrong again. I by no means am arrogant thank God. I despise such a trait, because it is one of the worst in Islam. again, it is "your" opinion.
So how come u drifted from every thing I said and moved on to personal stuff. Why are u leaving the main topic. Or is it that when you have no logical answers you start to get personal for some reason or the other?
Craig, let me tell u something. I grew up always saying what I felt accordingly to the justice from the Islamic doctrines. I always hated and despised inequality and injustice towards any one. Islam calls for Equality, strength of will, saying the truth even if it will lead to personal harm if one can bear it, peace, love, harmony etc etc, name it, it is there.
I am not about to change that now for anyone's mere pleasure or search for blind approval.
Finally, if you think so just because I stated facts, then I guess it is my turn to say, no comment.
I was hoping to read something related to anything I confronted u with, something perhaps logical or justifiable to say. And guess what, I will be very attentive.
I was just wondering if you are aware that other people perceive you as being hostile. Because, you may not be.
I have a tendency to be arrogant too... in fact, I have all of the 7 deadly sins of Christianity, to some extent. I'm not trying to insult you, I'm just pointing out why it is that I don't wish to engage in a discussion with you.
Good luck buddy! We were there before, and sure know how it feels.
By the way, you are absolutely wrong because Satan was aware if his arrogance and not only that, but defended it, by saying to God that he has created Adam (3alihi Al salam) from dust and created him from fire assuming He is superior and Adam being inferior (God only knows where Satan got that from?).
We are all created from dust Mohammed. We are all equals in terms of humanity but what makes some people better is their taqwa (Piety). Even that too is not something to speak of in terms of comparison amongst people in mockery or sarcasm.
Person X might have less taqwa than person Y today, and the next minute be ahead ten times of person Y. So, kindly save yourself the trouble of calling me arrogant because it really does not apply to me.
Mohammed, would u kindly point a single phrase where I even implied anything about myself in comparison to anyone anywhere where I attempted to show I was a better person? You should know better who does this all the time. Looking down on people and describing them as being ignorant or whatever.
Craig,
I was just wondering if you are aware that other people perceive you as being hostile. Because, you may not be.
Well again if u are asking, then no, on the contrary most people criticize me for being too easy going, picky yes, I like issues to be balanced rather than bias. However, people who dislike opinions contrary to theirs and have no logical answers to things do view me so.
It becomes a defense mechanism when some people have nothing to prove others wrong, even though down deep inside I think they know it, but their excessive pride they will not admit to their faults or wrong misconceptions or judgments to certain aspects, just not to look bad, when that is not the case. In all cases, blogs tell a lot about people if and when they are honest.
I don't know if you've read anything at mine, not telling u to, but u can go there and see for yourself. I am open to discussions and can handle different or contradicting opinions to mine and am willing to admit I am wrong if proved so. Every thing is open for discussion as I mentioned before. But I prefer amicable and decent ones that do not turn into personal fights. We may all disagree about certain issues, but still be good with one another, I can't see why not.
I have a tendency to be arrogant too... in fact, I have all of the 7 deadly sins of Christianity, to some extent.
I'm not trying to insult you
In what way would that insult me? If you thought it did then no. It didn't.
I'm just pointing out why it is that I don't wish to engage in a discussion with you.
Please point out one phrase I wrote which implies arrogance (maybe u misunderstood, it is a possibility. Right?) and we can take it from there. If I was, I will apologize for it, because I would not want to you or anyone to feel that about me. But otherwise, then this whole attitude is just a means to escape the main topic or that you have no logical answers to the things I stated earlier.
In all cases I'll stick around for whatever any of you have to say. Won't go anywhere insha'Allah (God willing). I am aware you mentioned you do not wish to engage in a discussion with you. But I still felt a need to clarify things incase you changed your mind, which I doubt you will.
Good day to you Craig.
Why do you assume I am talking to you. I was answering Craig's question, reflecting on Satan and then couldn't help but draw similarities between your arguments and his. All he kept doing was prove that Adam was not pious enough.
Satan also had arguments as to why he is more pious than Adam, and thus he should be at a higher level and not prostrate to him.
Since then, Satan(s) decided to follow humans everywhere (including blogs) distracting them from being good people, pushing for the not-so-nice side of them, just to prove that he is better than them, and to prove that humans do not have piety and thus deserve hell fire.
A3ootho bellahe men alshaytan alrajeem. It would help to repeat that everynow and then.
"We are all equals in terms of humanity but what makes some people better is their taqwa (Piety)."
That's the definition of "self-righteousness"
Seriously. It is.
"Please point out one phrase I wrote which implies arrogance"
OK, for instance, this:
"I was hoping to read something related to anything I confronted u with"
You made this comment in regards to me asking you why you didn't like democracy.
Why did you "confront me" and then demand that I answer your allegations? I viewed this as both arrogant, and hostile. It's not offensive, but it's very difficult to engage in a dialog with somebody who sets that kind of adversarial tone.
"Please point out one phrase I wrote which implies arrogance"
OK, for instance, this:
"I was hoping to read something related to anything I confronted u with"
What arrogance is there in asking u to comment to some facts and answer questions I had for you, I am sorry if you took it in an arrogant way, but I honestly did not intend for it to be that way at all.
Craig do not forget that this is cyber space, you cannot really tell what the tone of the person is, but in all cases I am sorry, didn’t mean to upset you. About democracy, I answered to that earlier and explained myself, I was not upset by your allegation when u said "obviously" was i? I just commented and tried to explain my view about it.
You made this comment in regards to me asking you why you didn't like democracy.
You did not ask why, you addressed me by saying something you had decided for yourself "you (dalulla) obviously do not like democracy……… All my answers were in reference to that, and to what u were saying about not wanting me to use the US as an example.
Why did you "confront me" and then demand that I answer your allegations
If I may ask, why are you saying allegations? Aren't the events I mentioned for real? They are not allegations. Craig, they are very true realities that hurt so many people from both your country and others from many other countries.
I viewed this as both arrogant, and hostile. It's not offensive, but it's very difficult to engage in a dialog with somebody who sets that kind of adversarial tone.
Why did u take it like that? Why did u assume I had an arrogant, hostile and unpleasant tone? All I did was state events and had questions in regards to them?
For me as an Arab and Moslem, I feel so much anger about what is happening concerning this anti terrorism false banner Bush is hiding behind and because of the US's foreign polices. They impose on others too much as if they rule the world. If you were in my shoes, or any other Arab amongst those who were directly harmed by these policies, how in God's name would you react or feel? I have nothing against you in person Craig, but when you want to show care for your country's system, I suggest u do it considering others too. You shouldn’t do not do it just because of doing it. If your son went and hit some other kid just in front of you for no apparent reason and you witnessed it yourself, wouldn't you at least tell him that that was unacceptable? Or would you teach him to bully other kids around and still be proud of him? Loving and honoring our countries is great, but when our country's policies are wrong and unjust the least is to admit to it and not blindly defend it. Please correct me if I am wrong.
BTW, could you please not use my country as an example of fake democracy? Kinda bugs me :)
In exchange, I'll agree not to lecture you about Egyptian politics
I also answered to the lecturing bit. What were u expecting me to do? Not answer? Or try to please u by not stating facts? I am not trying to upset u or anything of the sort. In any case, U can end this discussion here if u want. But I also did have the right to ask u to answer to what I wrote. You choose not to, and that is fine. That is all I meant when I said I was hoping to read………etc. Besides, why did I not view your statement about obviously don’t like democracy as offensive or negatively judgmental when every thing I was saying was quite clear and pro democracy. I was just speaking about the fact that there is no actual 100% democracy anywhere.
My original question, was why you didn't "seem" ( OK I win't say it's obvious now :p ) to care for democratic government. I ask because I'm curious. I requested you not use my country as an example of bad democracy, because you already had, and explaining what's wrong with somebody else's government doesn't explain your political philosophy. I really *am* curious about what your political philosophy is. What would an ideal (but practical) government be, for you?
I left you a comment at Me's. Won't answer here, because i hate arguements, and don't want to get into any.