27 Aug 2005

WANDERING & WONDERING

'...it is God's plan that He wants you to be put in a certain situation or to pass by something, even if you don't like, to examine us.' Interesting statment?

Why people think this way about God & situations they are at?

Can't think of any phrase other than, 'Changez le destin a chaque carefour...' by Brel! Any contradiction here between the two statments? Between Brel's and this statment? School of thought, if any in the two cases? Any connection with questioning vicegerency?

I dislike to think that God is putting exams, tests and watching you as you stumble for the sole purpose of 'examining' me. Examining me for what? He knows me inside out and doesnt need stupid suffering test to know how I will act or react. If we are going to speak in this naiive 'test' language, then I think everyone chooses his exams, his questions, and his answers, and we already know our answers. In otherwords, we consciously enter the exam we like but at the same time enjoy playing dumb and that we 'OUPS..Was this an exam. OUPS...I failed. Ah Ok guys, this is from God and I must suffer and endure.' No my dear, this is fake. God gave you 'reason', 'mind', 'heart' and everything to go on your own and we accept that, so be responsible of your choices and dont get God in the middle. God has nothing to do with your choices or exams or whether you sharpened your pencils or if you even brought one.

I chose Brel and Vicegerent theory. More liberal. More mature. More responsible. More inspiring and powerful. Harder. Cleansing.

35 Comments:

Blogger TARFAH said...

It is easier, and guilt free to think that external powers are controlling us and we are not responsible for our stumbles! I think we create God the 'Examiner' because we dont want to be guilty, and because we are unable to endure, accept our mis-judgements.

8/28/2005 04:19:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

I was sitting with a friend of mine, and said something similar. The idea of God, the way we like to construct it, is brought in to remind us that we are 'controlled' and better behave. And as you said, it is a relieving feeling that we didnt mess us, that God is just playing with us.

Very silly feeling.

I actually detess this kind of thoughts!

8/29/2005 09:27:00 am  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Life is but a big test.

8/29/2005 02:35:00 pm  
Blogger Dalulla said...

Good morning Haal,

Questions out of Curiosity? What is the purpose of Heaven and hell in your opinion Haal? What leads to them and how? Good deeds and bad? ANGER of God and His blessigns?

8/30/2005 06:51:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

Good afternoon Dalulla,

Just one question here before we resume, if there is no hell or heaven, or you happen to know there is nothing called so, will you still do good and avoid doing bad?

8/30/2005 02:52:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

This is an interesting post by our Hallaj.

8/30/2005 05:18:00 pm  
Blogger TARFAH said...

Dalulla,
Why did you capitalize ANGER of God?

8/30/2005 08:52:00 pm  
Blogger Mohamed said...

To scare you Tarfah.. but seems enn ma3andekeesh damm!

8/30/2005 11:17:00 pm  
Blogger TARFAH said...

from hanging a lot with you.

8/30/2005 11:24:00 pm  
Blogger Mohamed said...

heheheheh.. true.. very true.. see how light i am.

Haal, for some reason even your word verification thing is mysterious (it failed three times with me!!).

8/31/2005 10:12:00 am  
Blogger Dalulla said...

tarfah,
maybe for emphasis and respect.. I tend to try to give special attention to anything and everything associated with Allah, even in typing.

8/31/2005 12:43:00 pm  
Blogger TARFAH said...

True, Dalulla, but you didnt capitalize BLESSINGS and only ANGER, so it was interesting to wonder!

8/31/2005 03:42:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

so the capitalizing question is still unanswered, right Tarfah?!

8/31/2005 03:59:00 pm  
Blogger Dalulla said...

Tarfah
An unintended typo.


Haal,
In what sense is it unanswered? I was wondering, why did u not answer my questions. What i realized was u answered by questioning. Would u please answer it before we jump into different questions raised and drift. Or if u don't want to then i guess khalas.

9/01/2005 01:58:00 am  
Blogger Dalulla said...

Haal,
i was wondering, is ur real name Hala Rateb by any chance? Ofcourse u do not have to answer that. and please do not get all upset i asked a personal question. I was just wondering.

9/01/2005 02:00:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

By any chance why would you ask? Do you know someone called hala rateb? Well, No this is not my name.

As for hell/heaven then I would think my answer back question is my answer on some level--which doesnt have to be YES/NO especially when it comes to these types of ideas because with all my due respect, no one really know about Hell/heaven we are told and it is up to us to imagine.

The question of tarfa was unanswered, and still this typo is not an answer. Talking to tarfah, we agreed that capitalizing punishment cant be just a typo, u know. There was a message behind it or an intention even if we agreed that it is a typo err intention

9/01/2005 09:04:00 am  
Blogger Mohamed said...

I thought I already answered this question for Tarfah. You don't believe me! The capitalization is to scare you, just like when a sheikh in a mosque screams and shouts throughout his khotba, when nothing of what he says makes sense.

9/01/2005 09:48:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

This is what we thought too, Momo!

Yes, this sheikh screaming is disgusting really.

9/01/2005 10:37:00 am  
Blogger Dalulla said...

Haal
Where the question about ur name is concerned. Won't answer u because if u read my comment properly, u would have found ur answer :-)

Haal and Moe,
Nothing to tell u both except for Inna ba3d al zan ithm.....
I meant what I said about the typo whether you want to believe it or not.

The only one screaming here is you haal. You are very good at it. Almost reaching to perfection.

It is not me or any sheikh that will scare anyone, besides who ever said that Sheikhs try to scare people???

I must admit this does happen with some Sheikhs, and their method of approach I personally find not correct. But most of the Sheikhs do not do that. They teach people what to do in order to get over fear, to be strong and faithful. Besides, Allah himself warned us and told us to fear his wrath and at the same time not to loose trust in him as long as we do not insist on sin. Only when God mentioned this he referred to those who choose to be insistently disobedient. Religious teachings are there to strengthen people, not to weaken them. Otherwise, no one would have gone to prayers in the first place, or even attended Khuttbah Jum3a.
I sometimes wonder if you ever read the Quraan with comprehension.. If u read it and I won't even get into pointing to tafseer, because mosh hanekhlas if I do. Just the Quraan. Plain and simple and quite comprehendible lil latheena ya3kiloun, that is, because Hell and heaven are described in many Verses of the Holy Quraan, and also what deeds will lead to either of them, unlike what u said about left to imagine it for our selves! This is pure and utter nonsense.

In all cases, we shall all find out in good time who will be scared and who will be in peace.

Where people like you and Moe are concerned, I sometimes doubt if anything really does scare you where this issue is concerned, and I personally feel sorry for you, simply because u are too obstinate, always mocking, always underestimating, too sarcastic and I believe very far from even wanting to open up to any Islamic opinions (not mine) other than those u "personally" have (God knows from where..oops sorry, I forgot, you are the brain power and I am the backward person here!).

Haal your reply about the hell/heaven question didn't serve its purpose. So I guess u just wasted your "valuable" time writing it down.

By the way, I'm expecting you to delete the comment as u usually do when there is something you do not feel you like or is agreeing to your thoughts. Very odd! I can understand deleting a comment when the content has foul language, but other than that, I would simply categorize it as a cowardly act and an incapability of having an open discussion with opinions other than those u choose to believe.

9/02/2005 03:10:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

'The only one screaming here is you haal.'

Oh really! I dont want to insult your obvious intelligence and insights, but I dont actually scream. But as u probably know this is a virtual media where the limit of ones imagination is the sky.

'Almost reaching to perfection'
Please, dont underestimate yourself.

'It is not me or any sheikh that will scare anyone'
No dont worry, you dont scare anyone. The opposite actually.

'who ever said that Sheikhs try to scare people?'
Some sheikhs do use this high pitch to scare people. Mo was not generalizing and I assume you admit that in your next paragraph.

'Hell and heaven are described in many Verses of the Holy Quraan'
So you are taking the Quran Literal? So can u imagine gardens with rivers, wine, ghulman mukhaladun, fruits,..... If you can comprehend, imagine, taste everything you will find in paradise then there is no use of it, becomes then very materialistic.

I just happen to see paradise and Hell are just states of proximity to God and the pleasure of closeness and the regret of being away from that. What is more 'paradise' than closeness to God in a real way. This is what matters to me and should matter to anyone. You do anything not for paradise but for Allah, for his Face, which means to walk towards his 'direction' during which, Hell and paradise dont really exist--just tools to make you reach a state where you can be with God in a polite clean way.

'we shall all find out in good time who will be scared and who will be in peace.'
Oh yeah, baby! But we dont need to find out in the good times, we should do that now, here!

'Haal your reply about the hell/heaven question didn't serve its purpose.'
I doubt if you understand what was its purpose in the first place.

'I'm expecting you to delete the comment as u usually..'
Well, I guess you are wrong. I never deleted any comments of yours (i assume u speak about urself, right), and thus dont see why I will delete this one. I will leave it just to be a witness to your nonesense!

'...it as a cowardly act and an incapability of having an open discussion with opinions other than those u choose to believe.'
I sure know you are talking about someone else because certainly I dont delete comments.

9/03/2005 06:01:00 am  
Blogger programmer craig said...

Love your blog, Haal!

Please excuse the interruption!

9/03/2005 09:18:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

Programmer Craig,
Thanks for stopping by. Long time no seen actually.

9/03/2005 12:26:00 pm  
Blogger TARFAH said...

Dalulla,

'I meant what I said about the typo whether you want to believe it or not.'

I actually dont believe it 100%. Just think that you meant something different with the capitalizing. But, you cant do anything about it. You just have to say what you meant, and it is up to people to believe it or not. You can't do anything about it. Right!


'who ever said that Sheikhs try to scare people?'
'I must admit this does happen with some Sheikhs'

Huh! Confused? Your second statment actually means that what Mohamed tried to say regarding sheikhs scare people and scream is right. Why cant just relax a bit and focus on what you say without reacting to everything Moe (where did u get the E from) and Haal say.

Re/ hell and heaven.
No one questions them. The question you didnt find serving the purpose was not an attempt to deny them as much as to elevate attachment to God beyond the idea of fear and reward.
If you dont like that, ok, stick to what you have in mind.

Baladi awee the last part of your comment. Be refined a little Dalulla, and grow over this rage, rad7 attitude!

9/03/2005 06:17:00 pm  
Blogger programmer craig said...

Doshar, I thought the question about whether heaven and hell were just a Godly "carrot & stick" routine was interesting! There are a lot of Christians who believe that also, but it's not something I ever believed. It's a worthy question, and I didn't think Tarfah was "insulting" in the way he asked it!

I also thought Dalulla's emphasis on the punishment, rather than the reward, was interesting. This is also soemthing some Christians do. That's the punishing God, rather than the forgiving one.

I'm not saying anyone in this converstaion is either right or wrong, but it seems like a lot of the friction is caused by the simple fact that people have differeing concepts of God.

BTW, in case it's not obvious, I'm a Christian, so I'm not here to argue Islam... just making observations about the conversation, not the topic!

9/03/2005 09:35:00 pm  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Damn, I've missed alot. Gals gals, I love you all, I miss you all (you too Craig).

Dalulla, I especially miss your deep thoughtful insights and have been eager to come back to read your valuable preaching here. Listen, do you produce tapes, or chit cheats, where I can buy to get more of that junk food for thought? Willing to pay alot to get those tapes, especially if they have those threatening tones scaring us of hell fire, and proving how much we're going astray and how there's no hope for me.

After reading your comment, I'm already convinced now that I'm dead meat with no hope to see heaven, so I'll just find me something else to worship. Do you have a picture of you I can worship instead?

9/04/2005 12:55:00 am  
Blogger Dalulla said...

Craig,
The emphasis on punishment is important because punishment is fearful and dangerous. Reward is reward; no harm shall befall anyone from reward. For example if u r walking in a street and u are about to turn left, but then u see a sign saying, Danger Ahead, would u still go? You will take your precaution and find another way to reach to your destination. But on the other hand, if no sign was ahead and cars are driving in and out safely, u will just take that road with no ideas on your mind other than driving and taking the normal safety measures while you are at it.

In all cases I still meant nothing by the capitalization of Anger in this particular comment. It was a typo and that is that.
I felt like commenting about the stress on Anger or fury rather than reward just to explain to you how I view it. If you gain God's mercy, then nothing to worry about, but to have Him angry at you is lots of trouble. That is all I wanted to say to you where your comment is concerned.
We are not going to spend time in this life insisting on sin and not just that but die arguing about it and then expect God to forgive us instantly can we? I have no doubt that God is merciful, and many instances in Islam point out to such small good deeds on whose account a person shall enter heaven. But we have to be respectful to God's commandments don't we? If we are respectful and pay our dues to people for favors rendered, then why and how can we take God for granted?

9/04/2005 01:49:00 am  
Blogger MoonLightShadow said...

Depending on fear and punishment isn’t always a good way to convey a message. This concept might work with some people, but not with all. Concentrating on the reward might be of better effect on others.

The spiritual relief that a person gets from connecting with God is such a good reward, I think. Being in a good connection with God will result in the Heaven, no matter how each person perceive it. So, you work on your connection with God, you get the Heaven.

An example about that, a student who studies, he is not studying for the degree or certificate, or because he will be punished if he didn’t study. Rather, he is studying for his own good, he is studying to be a better person, and to gain the knowledge and information. A student studying putting that in mind, will get the certificate no doubt. The certificate here ta7seel 7asel, and it’s not the goal.

9/04/2005 02:48:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

Doshar said, '...i actually was not talking about the post topic itself, i do know it is interesting'

So why not just stick to the post topic if you want to share your thought, and let yourself out of whatever is happening!

9/04/2005 08:40:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

Well put Moon. As Craig said, the 'carrot & stick' attitude, some people can get of this mindset and realize these are just objects to lead them to a higher findings and elevation. Want to 'humar yahmel asfaran', fine, but just not insist everyone will be the same.

9/04/2005 08:49:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

So Craig, what is Hell/Heaven in Christianity? Do you think it is a historical/political/social accumulation of thoughts?

I mean, people always speak about how Coran came to address the Arabs at the time by their own language and ideas. It built on the existing ideas and thoughts, refined it and all, but still had to make them 'imagine' something familiar so as not to distract them....etc. In that case, Paradise and Hell/Heaven in the form described in COran are all part of this 'persuading' system, bringing of the familiar because in other parts of the COran, when talking about Paradise, there are words that indicate something like, '...it is not anything you have known bardou'.

9/04/2005 08:59:00 am  
Blogger programmer craig said...

Hmmm... Heaven & Hell in Christianity! It depends who you ask, I guess. Some Christian denominations believe in a literal heaven and hell. I think most Christians go with the version that John describes in Revelations. Some souls are saved (achieve salvation) and others are cast down into "the fiery pit" - what I'm not clear on is if the souls that are cast down into the fiery pit suffer for all eternity, or if they just cease to exist! There's a lot of contradictory stuff in the Bible about all this, and a lot of controversy as a result. I try to steer clear of issues regarding salvation, because I'm in disagreement with Christian doctrine on this point. As are most American Christians, by the way! 64% of Christians in the US believe that Christianity is only one of the paths to salvation, but 100% of church leaders believe that Christians are the *only* people who will be saved. Pretty big problem!

Best not to discuss it :)

Dalulla, in regards to what you were saying about fear being a motivator for people to live good lives, that's true in many cases. But, at least for Christians, the ideal is to be motivated by Love, not Fear. It's a very small number of Christians indeed who live their lives that way, though. Fear is a big factor.

9/04/2005 09:37:00 am  
Blogger programmer craig said...

Ah, sorry Haal, I didn't really address what you were asking about! Yes, I think the concepts of Heaven & Hell and many other concepts are (and were) described in ways that people could understand. I think it's a mistake to take such things literally. I don't know what "bardou" means, but a concept like "life after death" - how could that be explained to the living in a way that they could comprehend? I don't see how it could.

9/04/2005 09:48:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

'...souls that are cast down into the fiery pit suffer for all eternity, or if they just cease to exist.'

Cease to unite with the source. This is the worst punishment. To be deprived from 'love' that is the pain right here.

'fear being a motivator for people to live good lives'
I find this really odd. Makes us lower our nature to be like that of animals, when we are the 'CHOSEN'.

9/04/2005 04:03:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

'...punishment is fearful and dangerous.'
'...have Him angry at you is lots of trouble.'

The most ridiculous thing in Human is when they think they know God's reactions and judge on his behalf.

9/04/2005 04:46:00 pm  
Blogger Dalulla said...

Craig and Moon,
I did not mean for fear to be the motivator in life. If so no one will be able to live a minute and not be pessimistic.

Not at all, I was talking about the knowledge itself for precautionary reasons. To know and clearly understand what happens in hell and what leads to it (from what ever information we have been given through our religious doctrine) is essential. Or how will people know what to avoid if not told. Just like going to a foreign country which has different laws. If you are not aware of them and go ahead and break a law, I guess that will lead to getting yourself into trouble, won't it? Why is this alright and it is not alright to say that we must know what to avoid to enter heaven and avoid hell?

For me, i cannot and will not live with or by fear all the time as a motive to go to heaven. That is definitely not the idea of a life to live. Any person with some sense in their head will try to get to know why punishment would befall them and try to do their best avoiding it.. The motivation should be love as you and moon mentioned. In Islam we are told about what to fear, but the main stress is of reward to encourage the Moslems to do well in this life.

But some people just insist on defying the God given laws, those are the ones that should be "reminded" of God's wrath maybe some sense will come to their minds and hearts and that is a duty Moslems are told they should do with one another, and I also guess it happens in other religions. Some people are just too obstinate and that is why sometimes the Scholars resort to the emphasis on punishment to start with to get people to pay attention and not take things for granted. What lack of logic is there in that?

Where I am concerned, I do fear God, but I love him even more, and yes sometimes one has to be reminded or remind them self of what would happen if they do not abide to God's laws, but what makes it easy is the knowledge that his mercy is bountiful. He is loving and forgiving so therefore the feelings of mercy have the greater share in a Practicing Moslem's life, and that is what is encouraged. We are told that reward comes even with kind gestures, let alone words and actions.

If you are in love with someone, a girlfriend, a wife, name it. Don’t you make efforts not to displease them? You tend to "fear" hurting those you love, and not knowing will result in problems and pain. But if u do know it helps to offer satisfaction and happiness. So a sense of fear helps in avoiding pain.

9/05/2005 04:02:00 am  

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