14 Aug 2005

PREACHER ON THE SIDE

Why is it that you have a problem with the reviving of Islamic practices? Or is it that you have so much trouble accpeting that there are obligations in Islam that you have trouble abiding to and that is why u have developed this very defensive and also offensive way of thinking? What you question and discuss in ur posts is always contradicting or questioning aggressively about things to do with Islam and those who want to apply it to their lives. You always have this mocking or sarcastic tone. Questiong? Don't we all? But at least we take our questions to those with more knowledge or balash ya setty la7san all those with knowledge are not good enough for you, then what and who is your source?

Honestly the way you question things is really (not new to me certainly) very unlikely of a convinced, dedicated Moslem, by that i am not questioning your faith in Allah. And who am i to do so.. and am not doing so now either. But where or is there any love in you for anything in or about Islam? What you write and the way you write it is offensive, not just to me as a Moslem but i am sure to many others, but to you in the first place. What are you trying to prove here? Really? What is YOUR AIM in all this? And why? What good would this do for Islam? Or do u really believe that there is nothing seriously wrong in what u r doing?

Have u ever considered to really think again. But let me tell u this to the average Moslem and the simplest of them, there is definetly something wrong about the way you think. I just have one final thing to ask, do your parents think the same way you do? Does your family? Because if they do, then there was no point of all of the questions above. But from what i read before, they don't seem to think the way you do. sure hope not.

And What's this with Christians and Jews: Islamic? Come on.. Even God said lakom dinokom walya din! WHy r u trying to make Moslems and the concepts of Islamic belief look so ugly and bias and hateful when they are not? Instead, why not write some thing like encouraging Moslems who have misconceptions about the tolerence of other faith, that Islam encourages us to live in peace with other people of other faith for instance and not by being sarcastic or mocking. The encouraging tone would be.

You write beautifully and are well read, but i think in the worng directions if what you read is the source of what you write. YOU are intelligent and well educated and come from a good family. Why not use this to serve God and Islam instead of being brain washed the way you are.
And yes. I am sorry to say, I personally think u are one Extreme potential being wasted in the wrong direction. Fianlly, I would love to speak to u in person. I need to hear u out and/or talk face to face even. and yes i do care, enty Moslema, and whether you like it or not i am worried for you.

I know you dislike this but i could not hold it back. I worry for each and every Moslem. And i sometimes wish i can reach to every one just to tell them i simply care, it might make a difference. It did in my life, because i used to think pretty much the same u do till i was blessed with the right people and incidents in the right time. If u are willing to talk haal (talking won't bite you or force u into something u do not like) e-mail me on ***@hotmail.com or even speak to a tolerant Sheikh about your thoughts..take advise, discuss and argue all you want.. and that too i can gladly provide you with..that is if u really want to and have the courage for.

Prove wrong or be proved wrong.
* * * * * * *

So, who are you?


This post is a comment by our friend here Dalulla. Disclosing her name was based upon her request.
This post is a paid Ad. for SAHAR & LUCY INC. , a non-profitable organization owned by Zananeery group.

46 Comments:

Blogger Mohamed said...

For advise on faith matters call:
1-900-SH-SAHAR
or:
1-900-TEB-LUCY

For local residents, just call 1770 (first minute free from any mobile and press the corresponding button for your favorite sheikh).

Call now to be saved.

8/14/2005 03:46:00 pm  
Blogger Dalulla said...

Haal,
I am a simple 3abda Mo7eba Lellah and His Prophet (Allahoma Saly 3aleih) and to his creation, who prays everyone encounters the "REAL" happiness rather than the "Fake and Superficial" happiness. Bas keda.

8/14/2005 11:26:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

mashee ya fasee7a!

8/15/2005 12:05:00 am  
Blogger Dalulla said...

Excuse me? According to my request??? Wallahi u made me laugh.

I didn't request anything, I asked why you deleted it from the comments and why u didn't mention it was a comment by me in your post, but that did not mean there was a request for adding my name.

I can't believe you couldn't tell the difference. Any how, do whatever u please... but do not write things that have nothing to do with me please, such as this request thing.

8/15/2005 04:17:00 am  
Blogger Dalulla said...

Fasee7a am i? WELL thank you, now haal is giving a compliment. I am surprised.

But sorry do dissapoint u, fasa7a is for someone who is real good, and i definitely am not that good, but thanks for the encourgement!

When will you ever soften up? Wallahi it will not kill you. Take it easy

8/15/2005 04:24:00 am  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Haal, please. Why are you mentioning that this is a paid ad by Sahar and Lucy?! Who are Sahar and Lucy aslan!

If you consider helping others by providing phone numbers of respectable sheikhs who care for the good of the ummah a paid ad than you are dead wrong, and may God punish you accordingly. Do you consider yourself a real Muslim?! I'm sorry Haal, but making fun of a comment that was supposed to be for the good of all Muslims, and that would show the right path for non-Muslims as well is the proper behavior from someone who calls herself Muslim. Shame on you Haal. Repent. Repent now.

Now again, Sahar and Lucy did not turn this into a business yet. The phone charges (first minute free, following minutes 1.5LE) are only to account for the great knowledge that they have and, which they are spreading for no charge whatsoever!

Now again, since most of the people here are great typical Egyptians who want to get closer to God by any means and all means, regardless what those means are. I provide the local phone number for the good of all. Please call now. I beg you to call now. Its for your own good. Do it know damn it: 1770.

8/15/2005 08:47:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

Brother,
Thank u for ur kind words, and your deep care about this umma. Jazak Allah Khayran.

For your Info, this is an Islamic Ad. Money will go to support an islamic cause, build more trees in jerusalem.

Inna ba3d al-zan Ithm ya Akhee. Itaqee allah.

Allahmou e.3fer lahou, innahou la ya3lm.

8/15/2005 09:19:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

your welcome Dalulla. We, at Sahar and Lucy INC, want to encourage el mawa7eb el shabah.

8/15/2005 09:25:00 am  
Blogger Eman M said...

Mohamed,
Why are you using this sarcastic and mocking tone?
Why not discussing the lady in a reasonable way or see what is in her mind?
Open minds mean open discussions, walla eih?

Sarcasm isn't the solution please.

8/15/2005 09:47:00 am  
Blogger LouLou said...

eman,

Sorry but when you take the attitude of treating your opponents in a discussion as stray souls that you in your infinite & Divine wisdom have a duty to save you really can't expect them to take you seriously anymore.

8/15/2005 10:10:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

Moreso Loul, when you see that a person has the ability to go on and on forever with total subjectivity and one track-minded, you figure that there is sure something 'not right' with this whole persona mentality that you are addressing. 'Not right' not as he/she being retarded, but just in the sense that you both dont talk to each other. As you said, 'hadeeth el turshan'. Everyone, not only one person but both of us, are talking on different levels, having different perspectives, line of thought.... So there is nothing you can really do after that other than being sarcastic. But the funny thing is, the person doesnt get that too and go on and on. Hilarious, really!

I sure wont call that 'patience' or 'wisdom' or ....
The polite word is obsession maybe, or maybe the T.E.P style! Dunno really. But it is indeed a sad thing, socially at least.

8/15/2005 10:26:00 am  
Blogger doshar said...

loulou, the sarcastic tone would not solve any issues, it is just a very agressive offensive attitude. and putting it between laughs does not make it lighter bel3aks.

btw, dalulla is quite serious, and she is not making fun of anyone. if no one wants to listen, so be it, but sarcasm is not the way. and i just hate this TEB thing. how eould you know Haal how everyone in EGypt thinks , or mohamed? don't use generalizations like that. and as you do not accept personal crticism from someone, because you think they are mislead, don't do the same.


and the mockery uses words that are indeed supposed to be used in Islam, then you are mocking the whole method of speech, for ex:

"Brother,
Thank u for ur kind words, and your deep care about this umma. Jazak Allah Khayran."

brother: God has said in Koran that believers are indeed brothers. so calling a fellow muslim a brother is not to be mocked. you asociate the words with whoever you mock, but these words are not hers alone. they belong to the islamic umma.


and deep care for the umma is something to mock?

and "gazakom Allah Kol Khairan ?" isn't that the proper thankyou in Islam? walla we have to say Merci like the french?

"For your Info, this is an Islamic Ad. Money will go to support an islamic cause, build more trees in jerusalem."

What? so now you are mocking all poeple that collect money for islamic causes? is it only good to collect charity money to save the dolphins? or is the whole concept of charity being mocked here?

these are not things brought up by dalulla, so mocking them, you actually mock these words and whoever uses them.



"Inna ba3d al-zan Ithm ya Akhee. Itaqee allah."

"Inna ba3d al-zan Ithm", this is a verse in Quran! should not be used in this silly way. i am sorry, it is not meddling, respect your Quran.

so keep your mocking attitude to yourself, you are offending more people than you know.

i usually do not like to take an agressive attitude in my comments, but this has gone too far!

8/15/2005 10:59:00 am  
Blogger roora said...

loulou, the sircastic attitude is there from the begining before dallula comment by the way , look in TEB spot , how haal was sircasting about islam and her describtion fo jews and christians : islamic.
this is really giving a bad picture for islam .
and mohamed completed by commenting "For advise on faith matters call:
1-900-SH-SAHAR
or:
1-900-TEB-LUCY"

and when i thought it serios and i asked she commented by that she will not fed us by spoon !!! i dont begad the aim of this whole thing , she is just giving a bad image of muslims,i belive that everything to be said and written i should be accountable of it and i should have an aim out of it.

for your knowledge haal , sorry to say it , but i know some one non muslim who reads your blog and he was pissed ooff by the way you talk about islam , weirerd enough mesh keda ?

so please keep away your comments as if you are in a middle of war or argument and trying to win you and look beyond that shewya

8/15/2005 11:08:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

Doshar and rora,
Thanks for your comment. I think you are taking things way too far. This is how I see certain phenomenas and I choose this way to address it. No sarcasm intended with Coranic verses, that's for sure, but this 'language style' is an phenomena that I see important in the discourse of the islamic developing thoughts and attitude.

8/15/2005 11:21:00 am  
Blogger LouLou said...

doshar,

"loulou, the sarcastic tone would not solve any issues, it is just a very agressive offensive attitude. "

Actually if someone approaches me with the Allah yishfeeki for not agreeing with me attitude I'd be too furious to joke about it. Am actually quite impressed haal has managed to keep her sense of humor about this. Wouldn't find it funny at all.I HATE this kind of attitude.

Again if you start by de-legitimizing the other side completely, making it clear you think they are deviant or crazy people who need help then that is the ultimate insult. It's the height of aggression. If you want to do it ok go ahead but don't complain when you get disrespect & aggression back.

8/15/2005 02:38:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

'..for your knowledge haal I know some one non muslim who reads your blog and she was pissed off by the way you talk about islam , weirerd enough mesh keda?'

No, not weirded at all actually. I see that I talk in a thoughtful way about Islam, religion and faith, and your type of comments is what I seek to uncover.

'and i just hate this TEB thing. how would you know Haal how everyone in Egypt thinks , or mohamed? don't use generalizations like that.'

I didnt generalize. Read the post again and notice that I said 'Personally'. So I am talking about how I see things. AM I not supposed to do that on my blog. Have an objection, either dont read or be discuss. Luckly I dont delete comments.

8/15/2005 02:54:00 pm  
Blogger LouLou said...

roora,

"loulou, the sircastic attitude is there from the begining before dallula comment by the way , look in TEB spot , how haal was sircasting about islam and her describtion fo jews and christians : islamic."


It's clear to me that haal wasn't being sarcastic about Islam. She was being sarcastic about an attitude that is seen in some Muslims who she believes are brainwashed, don't use their minds, don't question anything they're told by others, aren't open to any kind of debate & persist in reducing Islam into symbols, logos & outside image & other shallow things.

If you & doshar don't have this attitude which I don't think you do then I don't see why you should be offended by it.Am not because I don't think like that so I know she's not talking about me.

Yes it's great & wonderful to say Jazakallahu Khairan. This is the language we all grew up speaking. But evil people can use it as well as good people. In the end they are just words. So to assume that anyone who uses Allah a lot in their conversation, has a beard & goes to an Islamic school must be a wonderful & capable leader is simply shallow.

It's judging people by things that are easy to fake & contrive - rather than by what is inside them & what good they are doing the community.

Islam & any other religion or philosophy that attempts to organize & direct human life needs to go a lot deeper than that or it will become marginalized. Most Islamic nations today are at the 'mazbala' of history in terms of development & human rights. We are poor, ignorant, diseased, repressed, underdeveloped societies that depend on foreign aid & contribute virtually nothing to human civilization. Almost everything you use in your daily life was produced or invented by a non-believer. Changing the label on it to call it Islamic doesn't mean that Islamic people or civilization gets credit for it. The fact remains that it's imported & that we are poor, backward, repressed, war-torn, under-developed societies who depend on foreign aid & contribute nothing to science, technology or civilization today. Our problems go a lot deeper than what we wear or how muc hair we grow on our faces or how we say thank you. And the answers need to do the same.

8/15/2005 02:54:00 pm  
Blogger roora said...

", and your type of comments is what I seek to uncover." so whay do u mean by that ?

8/15/2005 03:12:00 pm  
Blogger roora said...

loulou
" It's clear to me that haal wasn't being sarcastic about Islam. She was being sarcastic about an attitude that is seen in some Muslims who she believes are brainwashed, don't use their minds"

do u think all the people was clear for them like you say ?i dont think so

loulou, mohamed before discussed that in terorrism post and so many other bloggers for example during sharm blast , they were offending those brain whashed , non of us were offended , or upset.it was aiming something good and useful and clear and doesnt need sveral interpreations, for the simpe reader but what i see is a gereral sarcastic tone. Efforts to show something good for islam were found in may posts and were more meaningful,

haal , you have the right to question tab3an about islam , but try to show the postive side in public , i didnt se you for example defending islam by a word in the london terrorism blog , when some people were against islam !

general speaking questioning and discussing is something good but sometimes in puublic , it just brings fetna , got me ?

8/15/2005 03:24:00 pm  
Blogger doshar said...

loulou,
"Yes it's great & wonderful to say "Jazakallahu Khairan. This is the language we all grew up speaking. But evil people can use it as well as good people. In the end they are just words. So to assume that anyone who uses Allah a lot in their conversation, has a beard & goes to an Islamic school must be a wonderful & capable leader is simply shallow."

i agree that there are more important things than how to say thank you, but mocking it is also an important issue.

as you say, these words are used by the good and the bad. and this was my point exactly.

the mocking was about certain people, but as these words are used by all, then it is the other way around, it is not saying all that say them are good, but it says that all that say them are bad?

if you want to mock someone, use something unique to them. these words are unique to Islam. and the norm for these words is that they are used by regular muslims, so using them to imitate sarcastically someone is indeed offending. and i still do not approve of mocking strategy in general. it creates bitterness and hate. and when did the prophet PBUH ever use sarcasm in a debate?

8/15/2005 03:41:00 pm  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Roora ya 7ayaty... I admire in you your constant desire to explore, investigate, seek new heights. You're always asking the right questions, and always to the right people. This is the atittude that you should maintain. Don't ever let anyone get away with saying anything if they can't hold themselves to answering it in full details, explaining every aspect of it. The way your mind is always ticking with questions is just awe inspiring. Keep it up, I'm always looking for your questions, and wondering what the answers are myself.

8/15/2005 03:42:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

'... but try to show the postive side in public , i didnt se you for example defending islam by a word in the london terrorism blog.'

Excuse me, what is ur business if I comment on other blogs or not. It is my personal time and choice. Sometimes not commenting is better than writing a slobby ones... Got me?

8/15/2005 03:44:00 pm  
Blogger roora said...

Sometimes not commenting is better than writing a slobby ones

good that you noticed that

mohamed "Roora ya 7ayaty..." dont address me like that

8/15/2005 03:48:00 pm  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Sorry Roora, I apologize for my indecent proposal. Its all well-intended sister.

8/15/2005 03:59:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

Doshar,
I see your point, and I actually said before that it was not meant as a sarcasm from its meaning, but from what from how it has become used (to my taste at least). Something like the famous 'ins'allah'egyptian style.

But point well taken Doshar, and I mean it.

8/15/2005 04:07:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

'...so many other bloggers for example during sharm blast , they were offending those brain whashed , non of us were offended , or upset.'

Are you saying that you are brainwashed?!

8/15/2005 05:11:00 pm  
Blogger roora said...

of course i am not saying that. i was saying i was not offended when talking about brainwashed people in the sharm blasts because i knew they were talking about extreme people (the terrrists), who i agree are brainwashed.

8/15/2005 08:39:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

Interesting! What would make u think that you are among the brainwashed!

8/15/2005 11:43:00 pm  
Blogger roora said...

at last, no, i dont believe i am among those who are brainwashed, i am saying when loulou said that you were offending certain type of people and we should not generalize and be upset, it is not in islam in general .

i answered that mohamed before and other bloggers offended the extreemists during sharm blast , non of the readers of his blog said that this is accusing islam in general , got it!

not saying that i am brainwashed or any thing , hope that you got me

8/16/2005 11:30:00 am  
Blogger ألِف said...

"isn't that the proper thankyou in Islam?"
"words that are indeed supposed to be used in Islam"

If anything, this is exactly what I object to in the (supposedly) modern *Islamic* doctrine (khetab?). This deterministic approach to every aspect of human behaviour not worthy of a robot!
It's either that or an attempt at the monopolisation and trade-marking of common speech. It's not possible, you know.

general speaking questioning and discussing is something good but sometimes in puublic , it just brings fetna , got me ?
A double face believer? Or another call for elitism? What kind of faith that drives its followers to behave like a secret society or a gang of bandits, keeping their not-so-clean laundry to themselves and prosecuting those who depart.
There has always been دين العامة و دين الخاصة, but this is another issue.

Be relieved everyone; no one has to defend their faith. Simply because faith isn't something that can be taken away by force.

8/16/2005 05:58:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

I object to in the (supposedly) modern *Islamic* doctrine (khetab?). This deterministic approach to every aspect of human behaviour not worthy of a robot!

Would love it if you elaborate on that, Alif.

'...keeping their not-so-clean laundry to themselves and prosecuting those who depart....no one has to defend their faith.'

These ideas were brought up by Turfah at the other post as well. Yes, I agree. Everyone is acting as if he is under emergency law in relation to his faith. Avoid to talk about what they might see as 'dirty laundry' doesnt mean that this laundry doesnt exist. Everyone knows, and there are tons of theories being developed and researched there, thus it is better that we understand our history, with all its side, put aside this 'fitna' fear attitude that cuffed us and turned out to lazy bums unable to think.

8/16/2005 06:55:00 pm  
Blogger roora said...

mohamed, what you are saying is just fine. as i said, if she says people here should only write what amuses her, i would know and not invade her space. Although, if she wants to keep her blog private, and her comments selected by her, then her topics should concern only her.
if she decides one day, to wake up and just say bad things about... your family masalan? you would still stick to this i have to amuse her or stay away method? and my religion is as important to me as my family, It is my duty to it to defend it if beyet2al 3aleih something i don't like. walla eh?

believe me, let her stick to her own personal stuff, and i won't come near her

haal if you talk about something that i am concerned about, i WILL comment, and i will not have to say what pleases you bass. and if you choose to delete them, i guess ha3mel eh, but hakoon 3amalt elly 3alayya.

8/17/2005 12:30:00 am  
Blogger doshar said...

alif, if you do not want to use these terms like gazakom Allah Koll Khair, you are free to do or not to do so.

there are certain things that came around only in ISlam, like El salamo 3alykom . this is the way of talking that was taught by the prophet, if you do not want to benifit from something he taught us, then let others do.

if you say jazakom Allah kol Kheir, you benifit the person much more than a thank you would. you are praying for him, asking God to give him alot of good, and yes, it is such a better thankyou. similarly, every sunna that the prophet PBUH has taught us has some significance, whether we know it or not. And so that is why we follow his sunna. and interestingly, sunna is not a fard. if you leave it, i don't think you would be punished, i am not sure here, just specualting. But it is something unique to Islam, because it was taught to the muslims, where it was not there before.

As for the laundry issue, it is not like that. i think that attacking other muslims, by muslims, is not good for our image in front of another non muslim masalan.

8/17/2005 12:47:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

.'[greeting]..that came around only in ISlam, like El salamo 3alykom.'

But this is because it is in arabic, Doshar. In Judaism, they say Shaloum, which also means Salam. I am sure in Christianity there is something there with the same meaning. But apart from that, as far as I am concerned, why hijack anything to be of islamic origin only? And I dont want to be hocus pocus here, but isnt it more of the 'intention' rather than the acutal word. Sure, the words are beautiful, but the feeling is global. My thinking is that when you put terms, any terms, as purely islamic and arabic, then your message gets limited. Sorta, no?

'sunna that the prophet PBUH has taught us has some significance'
Sometimes I think Yes on definite things, and sometimes I just feel that some of the sunna were sunnat 3adat....

'it is something unique to Islam, because it was taught to the muslims, where it was not there before.'
Not sure about that Doshar.

'attacking other muslims, by muslims, is not good for our image in front of another non muslim'

What do you consider'attacking'? I think it is changing from time to time and is varying according to the conditions of the umma itself. For instance, during the early time debating and different opinions and line of thoughts were not considered 'dangerous', infact they were welcomed, but later this same act was considered dangerous....etc.

8/17/2005 08:59:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

and your type of comments is what I seek to uncover." so whay do u mean by that...'

Uncover, how some people think through their comments


Lucy and Sahar, are just dummy names for non-existence sheikhas, as far as I know. We just used them to illustrate a phenomena. Why these name choice in particular, no reason perse. Just any names.

8/17/2005 04:52:00 pm  
Blogger ألِف said...

What image? You suggest that if I don't look in the mirror no one else would notice I haven't washed my face in a week?

There are Muslims around the world who are so different from you that you would think (and you probably do) that they are not Muslims. Some of them might think the same too. And that's only in our modern time. More sects and currents than you know have risen and set, and don't assume that they disappeared because they were not true, or that what you believe now existed exactly the same through time, and as such is *the* truth.

As for the *Islamic talk* issue, it's not that I don't want to use a specific phrase, on the contrary, as Haal explained, I want you to understand that speech is abstract from any specific religion, and not trademarked by any.

I'm sure you're aware of the story of 'Bismik Allahom' at the Hudaybiya pact.

So, Doshar, do you think that Arab non-moslems greeted upon themselves by anything other than 'AlSalaam Alaikom'? Or that Arabs before Islam greeted upon themselves by something totally alien? It's a culture and language issue, not Sunnah and Faith, exactly like dressing and hair grooming. Faith has other domains where it stands out.

In Wadi Mkattab in Sainai, there are inscriptions in Nabatean on stones that are all comprised of three words: "Salaam, [name], w bteeb". These inscriptions date to 500 years BC.

8/17/2005 06:41:00 pm  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Yes Alif, but these are the greetings that are encouraged to be used by Muslims because their meaning is so full of grace and compassion. That is regardless of how long it existed, or of who used it before. Its a good greeting so we're encouraged to used it. Sounds simple to me.

8/17/2005 07:03:00 pm  
Blogger doshar said...

to alif
"What image? You suggest that if I don't look in the mirror no one else would notice I haven't washed my face in a week"

that has nothing to do with what is going on here

if you shout to your wife in the balcony, people in the street will feel that you are a broken down family and no one will want to join you

the example you used, the washing the face; the face is already something that is there in public. some things do not have to be.

and the islamic talk thing, as i said, do not use it if you do not want to. and do not even call it that if you don't want to. if someone says this or that out of wanting to get closer to God, or follow his sunna, or get a thawab, then he is doing it for his faith. then for this person, this talk is indeed islamic because it is not today's regular talk.

and some things were indeed used only in Islam, or at least emphasised upon by islam as the best greeting. and egyptians today, well some of them at least, say salamo 3aleikom now after they were brought up saying hi, because they feel that it is more to the heart of Islam, "Salam", is different than el salamo 3aleikom we ra7mato Allah we barakato. have to make sure of details upon this though, but over all, there are things that were not important if not non existent before Islam. and Islam made them important.

and the way you say thankyou is not the heart of the matter. there are more important things to discuss than the way you talk. but does not to mean to belittle it.

"There are Muslims around the world who are so different from you that you would think (and you probably do) that they are not Muslims."

different from me how? actually you don't know me, but i guess you are right, there are different muslims. but i do not think of someone as muslims or not according to my own thoughts or ideas. until i read their opinions and see for myself, i can't even have an opinion. as long as you say "La Ilaha Illa Allah, Mohamed Rasool Allah", you are a muslim to me. i am not really into the judging business. i don't like it.


"don't assume that they disappeared because they were not true, or that what you believe now existed exactly the same through time, and as such is *the* truth."

i KNOW it did not exist the same through time. the muslims changed, but some things are for ever. the quran is forever. this is *the* one truth, that i believe is the truth, and i will not doubt it. and there are alot of ayat that are more than clear, for anyone with some brains and some decent arabic language. things that are the heart of our faith, that are crucial to it. and they are repeated again and again. so these solid truths i believe in, and if there are other things that are confusing or are interpretted differently by time, these are the ones that are least crucial to your faith.


interesting talk though, is it about that we all think that we are right, and there is no proof that this is the correct way or not?

i will give you an interesting link, maybe a little more broad, as it discussed in general the difference between faith and knowledge, and how do we know that we are wrong. it is more broad because it is between all faiths, actually i was the only muslim there, but go and see

http://spiritualdiablog.blogspot.com/2005/08/faith-knowledge-or-belief.html

8/17/2005 07:15:00 pm  
Blogger doshar said...

haal, i think you might like the link's discussion

8/17/2005 07:16:00 pm  
Blogger ألِف said...

Although your example is even more non-analogous:
-If you are a broken down family, you cannot hide it no matter what you do. people will find out.
-If you are a broken down family, do you still want other people to join you in your misery!

But history matters are NOT family business. History is there in the public and the evolution of a faith is there in the public. They are not military secrets and should not be treated as such. And whatever the shortcomings in the personal lives of peoples of a given faith or in their attitudes, is not necessarily an attack on the principles of the faith. Unlike a family.

and the islamic talk thing, as i said, do not use it if you do not want to. and do not even call it that if you don't want to.
I am aware that I can speak like I want, and it's not the matter of me calling it a certain name. It's the matter of a simple Muslim bedazzled when his Christian neighbour greets him "AlSalam 3alikom", or when his other fanatic Christian neighbour forces himself not to use that same greeting, or when a miserable taxi driver or shop keeper refuses to answer my "saba7 elkhaer" or replies to it - like a robot - with "wa 3alaikom alSalam"!

Am I so unclear?

Oh, and when I say you, I don't mean you personally. Don't be offended; save your energy and words for the main subject.
:)

8/17/2005 10:43:00 pm  
Blogger doshar said...

mashy alif, you are right, i need my time and effort for other things.

8/18/2005 12:43:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

'...if someone says this or that out of wanting to get closer to God,...'
Why would this be an issue of getting closer to God through using words. I think this is what ALif and myself are objecting too. It may make you feel something, but putting you in proximity to God....I dont think so. I would tend to think it is part of 'occupying public space' attitude. Like feeling 3usba, solidarity, same greeting, same opening statment, same dresscode...etc. Part of 'existence'.

8/18/2005 10:30:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

and yes, alif, your cab driver experience bothers me, sometimes they even dont answer and just look at you.

One last thing that no gets me is when you are asking for someone's name, 'What's your name?', he would answer, 'Ahmed Ins'allah'....
'how much do I owe for parking?', '1 pound ins'allah' It is just funny. What does inserting ins'allah has to do with any of these situations.

8/18/2005 10:32:00 am  
Blogger doshar said...

ok i might clarify things a bit here:

this "talk", is used by 2 kinds of people:

1. People who use the words only to have a certain public image or space, and that is the reason they are saying it, or because they think that if you don't say this you are "faseq", and maybe they don't necessarily follow the real Islamic Values in other hidden aspects of their llives.

these i am sure irritate you, they iritate me too, i feel this is a type of hypocricy actually. and i guess all of your and alif's comments are talking about those.

2. there are people that like to say these things that the prohpet PBUH had used himself, or encouraged muslims to use. these people usually follow the pophet's teachings and islamic values in all other aspects of their life too (as much as they can), and apply it to their daily life, this whole attitude, which the speech is just a fraction of, is indeed for the sake of following the sunna and getting close to God. these i do not see as hypcrites, and i respect their use of the language.

and these should not be judgemental of others who do not use it, because it is not right in Islam to judge other people or even be rough to them. Even debates in Islam have to be tender toned and not agressive, so as to come through at the end.

so i guess we were talking about 2 different groups of people; you are offended by the former, while i was talking about the latter

8/18/2005 11:05:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

There is awareness that there are 2 groups of this 'talk' as you explained. It is obvious, and they are fine to exist, but as far as I am concerned, I am more interested in looking at the under-current of why these groups EMERGED. Are they in reaction to some internal/external circumstances... and on the other front, there are 2 other groups on the other end of the spectrum.

8/18/2005 12:29:00 pm  
Blogger ألِف said...

"It may make you feel something, but putting you in proximity to God....I dont think so."
..and this is more than enough for me; to do a deed knowing that it is right and good.

Thank you ladies and gentlemen for a the conversation.
:)

8/18/2005 01:10:00 pm  

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