15 Aug 2005


You might want to read this on discussing the word brainwash, and this as a refrence to Dalulla's blog.

I am taking a risk here writing this post. But I am really interested in knowing, who are you Dalulla. Not Dalulla in particular as a person, but this Dalulla Phenomena. No offense intended for sure.

What is motivating you? What constructed your thoughts, books (what type, do you read in the first place), lessons, tapes, Iqra TV? Where did you get this information and style that you barrage any discussion with? Do you support Muslim brotherhood, or Ayman Nour? Are you feminist? Do you like Bin Laden or Zarqawi? Do you like the West, America? Are you with separating Religion from state and from politics? What do you think of the French revolution? Do you have college degree? Do you have hobbies not hubbies!...Do you READ? Do you READ? DO you READ? if yes, what do you read? Do you know that Islamic History studies exist? Did you ever have to write a short essay about 'what YOU' think?

You frequent my blog a lot, why? What are you thinking when you comment here? What is your objective? Do you see that you are doing somehting good to me and to others by commenting the way you do? Why? Is it a Da'wa thing in your opinion?

Who are a Muslim? Are muslims allowed to question? How and to what degree? Are we free to think the way we want? Is God a man? A woman? How does he judge people? Is He/She funny? Is it Haram to ask these questions? What is Haram/Halal?

What is the sources of islamic jurisprudence? Did the fuqaha'a and the school of previous thoughts compete with one another? What do you think of Istihsan & Masale7 mursala as a Fiqh tool? What do you think of 'Ali & Mu'awiya fight or misunderstanding or mini-clash? Do you think we should read that part of history, or it was nothing more than guys fight? Do you think that looking critically into Islamic history not recommended and there is no lessons drived from there, we better focus on the positive and ignore any controvertial thoughts? Do you see the Companion of the prophet as faultless? Why? Why not? Who are the companion of the prophet?

What do you think of the different islamic thoughts arising throughout the course of Islamic history? Do you think Mu'tazilla were not good muslims? Is it worth it studying their thoughts, or it is dangerous at this time? Do you think the umma has a priority at this time that is UNITY and for that we should drop everything? Do you think of 'Shi'a' as more than just those who say 'Ali habeeb allah.'What about Islamic sects?

Tons of questions....Really!


Blogger Mohamed said...

Haal, whether we like it or not. TEBs rule in this country.

8/15/2005 11:18:00 am  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Its part of our culture to be 'typical', and everyone must conform. Hence the majority are typical, hence they rule, and anyone else is an outcast.

8/15/2005 11:42:00 am  
Blogger doshar said...

haal, you said that this is not about dalulla per se, does that mean that anyone can answer these questions? some of them are quite personal, can not be generalized.

mohamed, not everyone conforms just to fit in. the society today has all different types of people, all co-existung together at the same time. go to any university nowadays and you will see all extremes, and all that is in between too. and they are all existing together, and there are hardly any outcasts.

there may be some segreggation normally, birds of the feather do indeed flock together, but you would have no problem doing or following what you want without being outcast. you have your inner circle that loves you and supports you, and the others you can be oblivious to. ex. in the auc, as it used to be, if you are not liberal and a bit free, you would be an outcast, that is when i was applying there 15 years ago. now, it is not the same at all. there are your "TEBs" as you say, there are the liberals and others. the only thing they have in common is that they all learn to use their heads better, because of the method of education, but they can still use it however they want. typical is getting less and less and less.

btw, Dalulla is originally an aucian, and she was way different then, so i think what forms her mind set now is not what formed alot of others.

8/15/2005 12:03:00 pm  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Yes, doshar, but those so-called auc liberals are looked at by the society as 'auc farafeer' or 'seyya3', and then if someone disagrees with that opinion, they'll say, "but look at how many veiled girls study there now, and how the number is growing", no?

8/15/2005 12:16:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

I dont agree to this 'if you are not liberal and a bit free, you would be an outcast' statment. I am an AUCian as well, and I didnt feel this the way you put it. They all do agree on using their heads, both the liberals and the conservative, and this was the criteria back then.

Not sure what do u mean with 'now, it is not the same at all'? The degree of using ur head has detriorated big deal. Now AUC as I see it is conforming to a greater degree than it used to be. Even on the curriculum level. Books on Qutb are stolen or disappearing, pages from Suyuti's are snatched out, articles anti islam are snatched from Periodicals, comments on liberal books are written all over it with curses and comments about how kafir the author is....lots of lots of that. No generalizing, but I am talking about the attitude change.

8/15/2005 12:29:00 pm  
Blogger doshar said...

i don't mean they are not the same in the auc now in any way except the outcast thing mohamed is referring to. what you are saying is going on now is quite wierd of course. didn't know that. i just mean that it is easier to be your own way without being pressured by society.

back then, maybe the conservative were not exactly outcasts. that would be a to strong word to use. but they would not be comfortable all the time and they could be drawn to being more liberal for the sake of being like everyone else. everyone wants to be popular, and in a lot of cases different is not always popular.

the AUC is just an example by the way, just saying that i think the pressure to be like the majority is less. and there os more acceptance to different.

example of how society changes a bit, nothing to do with faith, lets say, marriage, 40 years ago it was an absolute taboo to be a divorcee in the society. to get a divorce your life would have to be at peril! now it is getting done for the simplest of reasons. etc etc. the effect of the gama3a is still there yes, but you have a bigger chance of ignoring it now.

8/15/2005 12:52:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

'..[conservative] would not be comfortable all the time and they could be drawn to being more liberal for the sake of being like everyone else.'
Yes, this was the case to a degree, but they soon lose their identity and become a Fou d'roi, king's fool and eventually is left out again, and the other version is to segregate and look for someone like them to mingle with. I remember clearly that there were bunch of classifications: where do u sit, greek or between courts.

I once heard 2 local ladies walking near auc pointing to a veiled girl saying, 'Masa'allah, hata el gama3a el fagrah dee ba'ah feiha mu7agabat. el bent zay el amar fee el higab. 3ou'bal el saeya3 eltaneen elly gowa...'

Attending Islamic classes in there, issues of prophet's succession and the troubles during these era were discussed freely, now I hear that students would get agressive with teachers for getting them read this stuff, and some teachers are boycotted.

8/15/2005 01:04:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

'I think the pressure to be like the majority is less, and there is more acceptance to different.'

Dunno know about this. Maybe because the gap between groups are getting wider we see it as such, but there is brain-wash for sure, for both sides.

8/15/2005 01:16:00 pm  
Blogger Mohamed said...

"for both sides", yeah, I agree there.

8/15/2005 01:28:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

But the question is, 'who, what brainwashed these 2 parties?' Is there a middle party in between this gap? Who?

8/15/2005 04:15:00 pm  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Yes, there's a middle party. They're the silent majority (or is it a minority), who prefer the 'safe side'.

8/15/2005 05:15:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

This Safe side is killing me. Then maybe I am considered from the other brainwashed too....

8/15/2005 05:23:00 pm  
Blogger Mohamed said...

I think that for every TE, there's a TE that looks very different, but is really the other side of the coin of a true TE. They're just the same really.

You, no.. you're a TF :)

8/15/2005 05:32:00 pm  
Blogger TARFAH said...

Sounds like no one is interested in the questions.... I will give it a brief shot though.

From my personal experience and watching the ongoing struggle of the 'dalulla effect' with 'the haal effect', stems from the former's continous attempt to 'perfecting' the image of Islam and its components, be it the prophet, companion, historica incidents, thoughts, rituals..etc, as if they are figments of imagination, or never happened. This could be because the result of couple of cases, 1) 'Dalulla's effect'lack of historical knowledge and ongoing debates that rocked the islamic umma throughout its early history, 2) a deep wanting and yearn to reach for a perfect picture of the past that could serve as a driving force to imitate this utopia, which is of course naiive, 3) fake fear and fake parental responsibility that everyone's faith is 3ala sha3ra, as they say, and thus they developing a fake parental attitude that they are afraid from Fitna, which happened to be the Sunni's worst nightmare....there are much more, but this all lead me to conclude that.....

'these people need to read, and read a lot in their own history. Develop a critical, analytical mind that is able to see beyond the 'absoluteness' they want to frame everything in for their peace of mind... ..

8/16/2005 03:56:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

So what is motivating this group is the 'limited knowledge' they have of their own faith? Or the extra load they added on themselves without preparing themselves by reading, knowledge, ...or are they really doing great but only to a limited bunch.

I dont want to go personal, but I lived in Europe and USA long enough to see that this 'dalulla style' preach like, turn europeans away from Islam and from just listening to muslims talking.

I hear talks about 'al-khitab al-islamee' and now Alif brought it up again, so do we really need to rethink our speech..

8/16/2005 07:13:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

and yes, Tarfah again, the fitna part is what freaked the Sunni majority, and thus this mild, lame, attitude that dragged us back, not only politically, but socially and mentaly.

Thanks for the comment.

8/16/2005 07:14:00 pm  
Blogger Dalulla said...

rabena ma3ako :-)

rabena yehdeena kolena, especially me of course, since I am not well read; poor me :0( and don't have a brain, or have one, but on hibernating mode seemingly.. and a blind follower..

Oh well, for you to know and me to wonder. Seems you guys have it all figured out... BRAVO. Really ... Boy will Allah and His prophets be proud of you on Judgment day...

BRAVO and a great salute to the readers and educated... antom al sabekoun, but for sure, i would never ever want to be from the la7ekoun if that is the way you people think. Alhamd Lillah 3ala ne3met el Iman Bellah wa Rasoulo and ne3met the ease of heart and mind (because haal, this is where I get all my information from, ketab Ellah wal Sunna).
The Quraan and Sunna have it all. You seem to confuse History and faith issues, for God’s sake, you are confused yourself, one line you say something, then in a paragraph later you say something totally contradicting what u said earlier... Since you read so much, do you actually re-read what you write? Or do you just dash it in at the peak of your anger and press Post away? And in addition, you never answer questions directed to you, how can you expect someone to answer your own confused questions. And why do you delete comments? Yeah yeah, it is your blog after all, but the comments you delete show you are insecure. Why is that? Why the insecurity? Why be afraid of something as long as it is free of foul language… You mentioned deleting comments, but WHY? Why would you delete them? Just because they do not appeal to you? Or is it that you have no answer to them? You can leave them and not reply or say no comment or what ever. Be brave enough to face your problem, don’t hide it or hide from it. And as long as you are totally sure of what you write, then be confident.

When Prophet Muhammed (Allahoma Saly 3aleih) said that there shall come a time when a Moslem in the Umma grasps onto his faith as if on a burning stone/pebble, He was absolutely (undoubtedly) CORRECT.

يأتي زمان القابض على دينه كالقابض على جمرة من نار.

8/17/2005 07:04:00 am  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Dalulla, of all those who might be trying to say something here, you are the most annoying.

Its interesting that you get very personal in your comments, and then throw in a verse or two from the Quran, as if that will give it credibility, and will add value to your words.

People are free to worship as they wish, you are free to think you have your own perfect version of our faith, but give us a break and stop acting like God, la7san yekhsef beeky el'ard wa ma 3alayha.

You think its smart to attack people, and then put it in an Islamic perspective, and throw in a few verses and hadeeths. Well guess what, Allah knows our intentions, so no one needs your preaching.

8/17/2005 08:19:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

'....where I get all my info. from, ketab Ellah wal Sunna.
The Quraan and Sunna have it all. You seem to confuse History and faith issues...'

Where is the confusion between History and Faith. We are discussing history, no one talks about Faith. Faith as you know is always hidden and in the heart. History is studying incidents and how it affects teh ongoing discourse around it... it sure affects 'faith' but more importantly 'change it'...and this is what we are talking about....'faith shaping'.

You get all the info. from Coran and Sunna? Is it really that clear to you. I mean, you are confused about something, you open the COran and Sunna and find it. Is it that simple?

8/17/2005 08:38:00 am  
Blogger TARFAH said...

what exactly is 'worrying' you from the way, those who you see as confused and inneed of Hedaya, thinking? Till now, you didnt say anything of objectivity other than indulging in lamenting and accusation.

No one said you persoanlly are not well read. Claiming that all your teachings are from the Coran will be utter naiivity, because if it is that simple then 'ma7adesh kan ghelb'.

'seem to confuse History and faith issues'
I think you are the one who is unable to differentiate between things. If you call history faith, and faith history, then you know neither history nor faith.

If I were you, I would take this opportunity to expose your library, maybe it will be of help.

8/17/2005 10:35:00 am  
Blogger haal said...

I guess, the concern is many fold,1) that someone from outside will read it and say that muslims are fighting among themselves, 2) someone on the fringe of converting or revering will take his intention back, 3)that the ideas and style of writing is wrong and is doing harm to something not sure what....something like that. Actually, I would really like to know their reasons, this is what i speculate.

No doubt, that this time is an interesting one for sure for muslims. Lots of attacks and accusation on muslims and islam, that breeded a certain kind of attitude and reflex reaction that started to spread around us. How I see it is a 'reaction', 'over-protection' mingled with some fear to look anywhere, and thus mixing faith with history; definition of faith becomes so think that anything for them is attacking it....something along these lines.

8/17/2005 05:02:00 pm  
Blogger ألِف said...

"this is where I get all my information from, ketab Ellah wal Sunna"

Religious texts can give spiritual guidance, but not information.

What's more, is that religious texts don't tell you anything about themselves. They present you with their latest version, the one you're holding now, as being the one and only version that ever existed, and of course the true one. Even (knowledgeable) Muslims acknowledge this as being not correct.

Studying religions and texts and their history as human phenomena does not lessen the greatness of faiths and beliefs. On the contrary, it presents them as what they are: steps in humans' struggle for perfection and completeness, and their strife for knowledge and for an interpretation for the creation.

You'll be surprised to know that nothing at all of what you believe is new. Nothing. It's all been there since the beginning.

8/17/2005 06:06:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

'..steps in humans' struggle for perfection and completeness, and their strife for knowledge...'

Very true.

'Studying religions, texts and their history as human phenomena..'

As human phenomena? What do you mean by that? Do you mean taking it out of the 'divine' approach taboo and mould we place them in, and study them as we study anything else...strip down the sacredness and truly look at it without any veils...

8/18/2005 11:02:00 am  
Blogger ألِف said...

Is there another way for studying something?
If you study it as a believer then you're not likely to *find out* anything about them, merely find ways to assert what you *know*

When you study Hindu or Zarathustrian scriptures, in which divinity you normally wouldn't believe, does this belittle them in your heart?

Could AlMo3tazela or Nasr AboZaid have done their ta2wil had they bought the pre-packaged theory about The Book?

(I'm only thinking with you)

8/18/2005 01:19:00 pm  
Blogger haal said...

Yes, Alif, this is how I feel we must train ourselves to approach anything, and particularly, sacred texts, taboos, figures..... the heart has what it has...The rest are just images that are the accumulations of different layers of figments of imaginations and fixations.

I was just interested in knowing what you really meant by 'human phenomena'.

8/18/2005 01:32:00 pm  

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